Darlantan

6 minutes ago, sup3rg00se said:

Then came the popoto answer..............

Oh thank god not another supporter. Welcome!

Okay so, just to be clear, the hero lists aren't really the main focus of this thread. They are a valuable reference, but I'd like us to have an overall plan for going into the objectives more than anything else. As I mentioned last night, we are still ignoring minions way too much, which I think happens because we tend to use too many resources to go after kills. Also, that issue is going to really start sucking come Tuesday when minions start doing (triple?) damage to structures.

That all said, thoughts on the hero discussion below:

Towers of Doom: Greymane benefits a lot from the super-short lanes and can really handle a lane easily, so I've added him under that category.

Infernal Shrines: God I hate Sgt. Hammer. But she is quite useful at our team's rating here. Added.

Battlefield of Eternity: Added Tracer. There are a lot of good options on this map, and a few different ways to approach immortal phases, actually.

Sky Temple: Area control is super important here. Rexxar added.

Cursed Hollow: I think Tracer is fantastic on this map, but playing her there requires more care. Her ability to flank is unmatched, and if you can isolate a Li-Ming or Chromie or Tyrande in the back line you can really terrorize the enemy.

Tomb of the Spider Queen: Raynor is always an option to hold a lane but there are usually better ones. Hyperion is quite good on this map, though, since it basically takes up the entirety of any area, save the keeps and cores.

Dragon Shire: I'm not sure Giant Killer and Inspire are any better on this map than any other. I think you're looking more to pair him with an AA hero, or to counter a Tracer or a fat, immobile front line.

Garden of Terror: Lunara is there under Vision, but she can definitely do work on this map, poking from behind walls.

Blackheart's: Dunno yet, I'll see what happens when I finish my posts!

MOAR HERO LEEEEEEEAGUE! The Diablo on my team had NO fear.

HERO LEEEEEEAGUE! Brightwing too much fun. Check out this Butcher and Medivh tho.

I also want to keep a list of heroes people feel good about playing in more competitive games, or when we're practicing in QM, starting by taking from this thread. That plus getting some info about the different maps recorded here should make it easier for us to draft well.

These are mini-roles we should try to cover, and then fill in the rest with solid overall choices. Say on Infernal Shrines we get Falstad and Sylvanas with our first two picks; then, the need to get a Dehaka, Brightwing, Zagara, or Xul diminishes quite a bit. We can build around that with maybe... Kharazim, Kerrigan, and Diablo. Or if Diablo is taken (not unlikely on Shrines), or perhaps the enemy team goes super auto-attack heavy and stacks Greymane + Valla, we grab Johanna or Muradin where possible. In a way these lists are also rough drafts off the top of my head, which is one reason it's all just a brain dump.

Reserved maybe? Also got the second post done.

Resurrved

Garden of Terror

Desired Heroes

• Lane Push - Xul, Sylvanas, Zagara
• Lane Sustain - Thrall, Sonya
• Vision - Lunara, Tassadar, Tyrande
• Maze Fighting - Illidan, Jaina, Li-Ming, Zeratul, Greymane
• Globals - Falstad, Dehaka, Brightwing

Ugh, so much to keep track of with this map. We don't need all five of these points, but each one helps in a different way. The lanes are far enough apart and the maze inconvenient enough that we can't exactly roam as a team, and even rotating is a big hassle. Ideally we want to set ourselves up in the lanes in the best way possible, and ensure that we don't get pushed out and lose xp. I think our base strategy should be either a 1/3/1 or 2/2/1 split in the lanes, depending on whether we end up with two very capable laners (Zagara and Thrall, or Sylvanas and Sonya, for instance) or not. Similar to Sky Temple, we should focus on waveclear during day phase as that allows us freedom to get seeds without losing out on xp, and on doing the objective at whichever site is more convenient for us. If we are way ahead or get some nice kills, we can invade the other side. If we can ninja the small plants from the side we don't go to, that is good too. Generally though, we should expect to trade seeds unless we see an opportunity.

Our Terror's default method of operation should be to push down enemy structures wherever they are weakest. From experience, I have also noticed that unless we're in the middle of a team fight, we should spawn our terror as quickly as possible and get it moving toward the enemy's stuff. If you're in the terror and they meet you right away, chances are we were behind and they had time to mobilize. Additionally, if ever we have a terror up and the enemy doesn't, we can use it to run the other team around while the rest of us knock down a building.

But it all starts with staying in lanes and clearing minions!

/edit: Interestingly, I found this article on TeamLiquid's site. It is from February 2015 (!!!) but still might offer some information. This is particularly interesting.

Quote

When the night comes, the Shamblers will appear at both the top and bottom of the map. While the position is similar, the shamblers are a little closer to the left on the top side of the map, and to the right on the bottom. This positioning makes it so that bottom is more favorable for the red team (right side) and top is more favorable for the blue team (left side), and this is very often reflected in the metagame with three-hero lanes in the top or bottom lane to either push the lane hard and comfortably gather seeds at night or to counter the opposing team’s push and attempt to steal their “easy” camp to take. Similarly, it also affects how the mid lane rotates for seeds as well.

Blackheart's Bay

To Be Continued...

Cursed Hollow

Desired Heroes

• Terrain Harassment - Illidan, Li-Ming, Anub'arak, Medivh, Zeratul, Tracer, Stitches
• Tribute Contests - Diablo, Valla, Gazlowe, Jaina, Rexxar, Zagara, Johanna, Arthas
• Globals/Vision - Falstad, Brightwing, Dehaka, Tyrande
• Lane Pressure - Zagara, Xul, Sylvanas, Murky

There's often a lot going on with this map, and I personally find it difficult to time merc camps properly. It seems that half of winning here is based on waveclear while the other half is dominating the narrow forest corridors. Devouring Maw is incredible here, along with things like Ring of Frost, Rain of Vengeance, Grav Bomb + stun, etc. Terrain Harassment is great also, but the team still needs a way to gain position on tributes. Something like an Anub'arak + Sonya combo backed up by Li-Ming and Zagara poke could be quite nice. Murky could be a play here if they only have one real damage dealer, or if we can use him to lock down a Morales or something. Tyrande's owl does really well on this map also, but it's a little scary to play her without a second support.

Tomb of the Spider Queen

Desired Heroes

• Waveclear - Xul, Sylvanas
• Lane Pressure - Zagara, Thrall, Sonya
• Wall Poke - Li-Ming, Zeratul, Chromie
• Roaming Damage - Greymane, Valla, Zeratul

Heroes that dominate small spaces are good here too, although strangely I don't see Diablo that often on this map. The overall strategy should be that one person with lane pressure sits bottom while the other four roam as a group to wipe out waves and maybe get some kills. Another good hero here is Kharazim who can use Radiant Dash to do a lot of work, and fights in tight areas favor Divine Palm as well. This is a pretty easy map to understand, though timing boss assaults can be tricky. Sylvanas can threaten towers but for some reason on this map it doesn't seem to work out very often. Maybe the minion waves spawn faster or something.

Dragon Shire

Desired Heroes

• Waveclear - Xul
• Lane Pressure - Zagara, Thrall, Sonya, Sylvanas, Rexxar
• Globals - Falstad, Dehaka, Brightwing
• Roaming Damage - Greymane, Valla, Zeratul
• Vision - Lunara, Tyrande, Tassadar

This one is a lot like Tomb of the Spider Queen, except that globals are a lot more impactful. The trick is not to pay too much or too little attention to the dragon knight, and the things that help accomplish that best are constant waveclear and map awareness. Having extra vision is a huge boon as well, since it's easy for a team to decide to invade a lane rather than go for a camp, or vice versa. Rexxar is kind of magical in the top lane as well.

Battlefield of Eternity

Desired Heroes

• Avalanche Effect - Syvlanas
• Immortal Killers - Valla, Greymane, Thrall, Illidan, Sonya
• Terrain Harassment - Li-Ming, Zeratul, Medivh, Anub'arak, Tracer
• Choke Point Control - Diablo, E.T.C., Rexxar, Arthas, Kerrigan

Only two lanes and a lot of activity in the middle of the map, so the Xul / Zagara go-to lane bullies lose a lot of effectiveness, and creep is really easy to kill unless the team is particularly ill-equipped for it. Sylvanas of course synergizes with the objective the same as on Infernal Shrines, and maybe even better here. Something to do here is to put a strong laner top at the beginning of the game (Thrall, Sonya, Greymane) and hit bottom hard, rotating as / if necessary. If we get Sylvanas, the no-brainer option is to shove into towers if we do manage to take a level 1 fight, or find ourselves in that 4v1 situation in bot lane.

In an ideal situation, an immortal phase goes like this:

1) Timer pops, our lanes are clean, and we take our bruiser camp (and if we're lucky, a siege camp as well)

2) Timer ends, and we are positioned on our side of the center area.

3) The immortal fight can go one of two ways. If we find ourselves at an advantage, or on an even footing, we can go straight into damaging the immortal. If it spawns right on us, we can put some competitive damage on it even if we're a person down.

4) When one of the immortals hits half health, they will change to new, random positions opposite one another. If we think we can win a dps race, we go straight to the target and kill it. Otherwise, we can go defend underneath ours to try to take advantage of the immortal's damage and stun effects, attempt to wipe or disrupt the other team, and then kill their immortal since the two will stay where they are for the rest of the phase.

Once an immortal phase is over, there are many factors to consider when deciding what to do. In the early game, with no exception, one person goes to soak the lane where the rest of the team isn't going. Factors are: Are we nice and healthy with mana? Does the enemy team have a lot of damage for our immortal? How is the enemy team doing on health and mana? Are we already grouped up near killable structures? Are we behind or ahead in either lane? Do we have Sylvanas?

Sky Temple

Desired Heroes

• Shrine Soakers - Sonya, Illidan, Thrall, Kerrigan, Rexxar
• Shrine Pokers - Li-Ming, Jaina, Zeratul, Chromie
• Globals - Falstad, Brightwing, Dehaka
• Lane Control - Zagara, Xul, Sylvanas, Murky, Greymane

Sky Temple is another big map where global presence and having clean lanes are both a big deal. Vision is also important, which is why Zagara is so good here, and there are some nice long walls for Zeratul to use to Blink to safety after a poke. Lane rotations can be complicated, and taking merc camps at the right time really helps too. One thing we don't do well here is trading temples. Even when we rush to contest one of them, we're still giving them a few shots without taking some from the other temple, and we don't accomplish much; even if we do win the fight, we're still only getting part of a temple rather than taking all the shots from the other. We should really only contest if we have a clear advantage.

Also, we should have a heavy presence in top and mid lanes at the start of the game, since that's where the temples will spawn. That vision is very nice too. The second spawn is always a single temple at the bottom, so we also need to make sure top and mid are clear before that starts.

Towers of Doom

Desired Heroes

• Laner - Xul, Sylvanas, Zagara, Greymane
• Globals - BW, Dehaka, Falstad
• Terrain/Altar Harassment - Artanis, Medivh, Li-Ming, Zeratul, Illidan, Rexxar, Anub'arak, Chromie, Stitches

Team fights are supremely important and globals are very helpful. Lots of terrain to poke through and dodge around. The lanes here are the shortest in the game, so constant waveclear is necessary. Lane rotations can be difficult with the vertical size of the map, but they are still important. Lane pusher needs to make judgements about whether to push a tower or rotate. Probably using a strat close to what we like to do on Tomb of the Spider Queen would work here--one strong laner rotates between two lanes (top and mid are closer together than mid and bot I think) while the rest of the team roams for kills. If that doesn't work, we can try to disrupt their rotations between lanes while rotating and clearing ourselves.

A nuance here is the relatively small difference in lane sizes. Mid lane's minions don't show up that much earlier than those in top and bot, so the initial fight at mid should be much shorter, or skipped entirely.

Infernal Shrines

Desired Heroes

• Avalanche Effect - Sylvanas
• Lane Nanny - Xul, Zagara, Falstad, Dehaka (waveclear talent), Thrall, Sonya
• Choke Point Control - Diablo, E.T.C., Rexxar, Anub'arak
• Objective Helpers - Kerrigan, Gazlowe, Jaina, Sgt. Hammer, Azmodan

Late-game objectives on this map are very important. Sylvanas adds insane value if you can get a punisher at all. Taking camps as an objective is spawning is a great strategy, but we have to have our lanes clean or it doesn't matter. In fact, waveclear is an extremely high priority on this map, period. It takes a long time to complete a contested objective, and if you're behind in lanes you lose a lot of xp, which is something our team struggles with generally. Globals help here too since you can split soak and then port up to the objective when it spawns.

PTR Notes are up. Lots of them.

http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/blog/20164442/heroes-of-the-storm-ptr-patch-notes-july-5-2016-7-5-2016

I may or may not be having an existential crisis over Brightwing nerfs. Any thoughts and prayers in this difficult time are appreciated.

I be dere. If we end up with six I volunteer for the bench! Actually kind of interested to see what kind of opponents you guys would get without my MMR in the mix.

Interesting info! And probably a good exercise as well. I don't have an analytical self-review in me atm, but I can at least share my current favored heroes.

By role

Support

• Strong: Brightwing, Rehgar
• Decent: Kharazim, Tyrande, Tassadar

Tank

• Strong: E.T.C., Diablo
• Decent: Muradin, Dehaka
• Needs Impovement: Johanna, Chen

Damage

• Strong: Li-Ming, Greymane, Sonya
• Decent: Falstad, Lunara, Zagara
• Needs Improvement: Tracer, Illidan, Kael'thas, Valla, Zeratul

I think I got everybody. Any names I left off the list I either have no desire to play or just haven't gotten around to giving them a look beyond getting them to level 5. I don't actually own Kael or Chen, which is why the italics.

I tried to keep this next section to three heroes per map, lol.

By Map

Battlefield of Eternity: Rehgar/Kharazim, E.T.C., Diablo, Li-Ming

Cursed Hollow: Brightwing, E.T.C., Dehaka, Li-Ming, Falstad

Dragon Shire: Brightwing, E.T.C., Dehaka, Li-Ming

Sky Temple: Brightwing, Dehaka, Li-Ming

Towers of Doom: Brightwing, Dehaka, Li-Ming

Infernal Shrines: Rehgar/Kharazim, E.T.C., Diablo

Garden of Terror: Rehgar/Kharazim, E.T.C., Li-Ming

Tomb of the Spider Queen: Rehgar/Kharazim, E.T.C., Li-Ming

So he's really just saying what we kind of understood the new system to be doing in the first place, but highlighting the fact that it will take time for it to fix people's MMRs, and then supporting that with examples and logic.

MMR (and its formula too) is certainly better to be hidden from its game's players, but at this point in time there is so much awareness around its existence and its impact that people are really trying to understand exactly how it works, and what it means.

At least the game will have relatively frequent seasons from now on, so that MMRs are more flexible than they were in the game's first year. In any case, the best way to raise that sucker is to play.

Wow, so 3 months after I made this post I finally finished my placement matches  I think I was just a bit too careful in building up a collection of heroes, lol.

I really wanted to hit 20 before the preseason ended for the wolf mount, but once I got further into placement matches I really started to think about rank 10. Unfortunately, despite going 3-2 against all rank-12-average teams for my last 5 matches, it stuck me at 18. It's still pretty tempting to go for 10, but I'd have less than 2 weeks to do it at this point. Pretty excited for the start of Season 1 either way.

I'm kind of excited. Drafts are fun.

I don't own a single hero in that bundle  so it's a little tempting for completion's sake. Even so, there isn't a whole lot in there that I want. Uther for sure; Arthas, Artanis, and Kerrigan maybe. Not a huge fan of Xul but he is a very good hero. The other three would just be pointless to me.

Annnd it froze on the load screen. FML.

Streaming nowwwww, I think Tilly's solution worked for me too!

Starting now-ish! We'll see if it holds up. I turned it down one more quality notch.

My Cleave + Tracer's explosion is so pretty in that first screen :3

Big changes coming to Hero League with the start of an actual Season 1, and some more discussion of Chromie / Medivh.

Now I did read that they changed their minds about allowing three people to queue together in Hero League (and that it would remain limited to two), and I'm kind of hoping that's the case.

Big Arthas changes in the pipeline. I would expect that death coil stuff to be toned down before it goes live.

Since we talked briefly about Tyrande in the chat room, here's a less stompy game we had where I played her. I put some time links in the description on the Youtube page as well for some of the more Tyrande-y moments.