Simetrik - Blood Death Knight

[simetrik]

Totally accurate analysis. I fully admit I've been stuck in the mindset of using AMS to avoid certain, specific abilities, and thus I'm not in the habit of using it routinely on that fight. Certainly an area for personal improvement.

Blood shield uptime should be low, since I'm taking consistent damage from impale even when the offtank has the boss. Whenever I lost my stacks, I would just taunt the boss back. Same deal with bone shield - no matter what, the charges get used very quickly because I'm taking consistent damage throughout the encounter.

In terms of blood shield size, I agree it's not huge. It's a little difficult for me to compare with other people because a) no one else is main tanking it with an average 523 ilevel and b) I can't find anyone (I haven't looked that hard, but I've looked) that uses our tanking strat on iron qon. For example, a blood death knight who ranked similarly to me (Politeatron on US-Aerie Peak) managed to get blood shields averaging 311k in size - clearly superior to mine. However, I'm pretty sure he took all of the dogs and the boss in the last phase, based on a cursory scan of his damage taken and debuff tracker. Also, his gear was a lot better then mine (he has a 541 ilevel). Finally, I've gained about 30% mastery since that log, which would increase my average blood shield size to 308k, which matches (sort of) his average size, despite the fact that I still have inferior gear. Furthermore, if I took the boss and all the dogs at once, my blood shield values would inevitably skyrocket in that moment, boosting my average blood shield size further.

Lastly, RC - I don't see how a 45% chance for the regeneration to proc can be seen as consistent. Blood tap is the most reliable talent, no matter what, because it always works (if you cap hit!). In addition, it's not that hard to maximize output if you acknowledge that you will be weaker for a few seconds after you spend your blood charges. I almost never hold onto my blood charges for very long, since I can plan out different cooldown usage, and in any case, I always have a death strike ready coming into a damaging mechanic (independent of blood charges).

That may not have been very clear, so I'll try to break it down into something that might be a bit more readable:

As a general rule, I use my blood charges before they cap to avoid waste. This is actually superior to RC in terms of output (proved by Rizor's math).

If a mechanic is coming up within the next 7-8 seconds, I'll save my charges. I'll probably only waste about 4, which is an acceptable loss for the increased blood shields that will result after that mechanic is over.

However, if I use my charges, but I start taking heavy damage for some unknown reason (healers aren't paying attention, I stand in something by accident, etc. etc.) then I pop a minor, or call for IB, or something like that. Usually, despite using the blood charges on a smaller than optimal blood shield, I'm fairly safe for a few seconds following that extra death strike. The real danger zone is from 3-5 seconds after that blood charge death strike, especially if I know that I need to save my backup death strike for an upcoming mechanic. But, here's the crucial thing - I know exactly when and where this danger zone will be, because of the consistency of blood tap. This moment of weakness is where I'll usually pop a cooldown I have available that isn't necessary for an upcoming mechanic. If I don't have one, I'll look at Hermes and call for one that's available. If no externals are available, then I'll scream for more healing like a little girl and hope a bloodworm will save me. I won't pretend it's ideal in the most dangerous of scenarios, but it's been proven in the field (by myself) as reliable, and it does unquestionably increase death strike output, as proven by SCIENCE. Plus, I can call for cooldowns like a pro, learned from watching slootbag for 30+ hours during t15 progression.

[simetrik]

I have no idea why I didn't pop DRW around 21:46:00. Its bind is right next to my synapse springs bind (which I used on cooldown). I suspect I may have been rezzing someone who died from the tornado phase (we had a few people die every tornado on progress) and gotten distracted - entirely my fault.

Regarding IBF, I won't lie that I'm extremely cautious about using it. My uptime on the log I linked isn't awful - I used it 3 times in an 11 minute fight. Typically, I preplan its usage, because when you need IBF, you really need IBF. I suspect I was keeping it as a backup in case I pulled aggro back from my offtank as impale was going off (you would think that would be a weird fringe circumstance that wouldn't happen if I was watching my threat, but it happened multiple times in the first phase, despite whatever my threat level was. I still have no idea how it happened, and why that behavior was limited to the first phase). Trinkets I usually keep as backup.

If I wasn't about to go back to work, I would find my best Megaera log and link that - that's probably the best indicator of my cooldown usage. Expect me to link one sometime today, if I can manage it before or after raid starts tonight.

[Hip]

But, here's the crucial thing - I know exactly when and where this danger zone will be, because of the consistency of blood tap.

Herein lies the source of the discrepancy in your argument. I don't agree that this is as consistent or reliable as you're claiming. I will agree that you can most certainly ensure you've got sufficient Blood Charges reserved to gain an extra Death Strike when you want it.

What I don't agree with is that you can exactly predict perfect usage of Rune Strikes and Death Strikes to maximize Blood Tap's on demand benefits to align precisely with big damage abilities. You are assuming perfect play in a controlled environment. Reality is that neither will ever exist on a timeline of any significance.

I think you're doing a good job in your play and in your theory crafting. I'm seeing things falling well within the parameters of what I'd consider good tanking/spell use. Certainly there are areas of improvement and your attitude and desire to play well will facilitate continued improvement.

My real point with RC vs. BT is to encourage you not to get too lost in the math. Yes this game is math based, and thats a very useful way to approach and analyze play. However, the giant variable of humans at the controls should influence how you're choosing to use your toolkit in various situations.

[Shaffer]

My real point with RC vs. BT is to encourage you not to get too lost in the math. Yes this game is math based, and thats a very useful way to approach and analyze play. However, the giant variable of humans at the controls should influence how you're choosing to use your toolkit in various situations.

Agree 100%

[simetrik]

Not to harp on the issue too much, but I think you're disregarding the fact that RC is a 45% chance proc. It's not actually reliable - It's just a way to increase rune regeneration without having to micromanage another ability. I won't pretend that I'm a perfect player who practices perfect coverage between those moments of weakness that BT naturally creates, but that doesn't mean that I'm not aware that I'm vulnerable during that phase. In a sense, this is Slootbag's whole tanking philosophy - he uses his DP procs to cover himself with SHoR as much as possible, then covers himself with cooldowns when SHoR isn't up. It's a very in the moment style of tanking. I won't pretend to be anywhere near Slootbag's level, and even at his level of play, he doesn't cover himself every time SHoR is down. But, frankly, he doesn't need to, and neither do I - any logs can justify this. It's more about being aware that you are vulnerable to dying in that moment, and so long as a death knight always keeps a death strike ready to go, or has one of their many cooldowns ready, they are the most reactive tanks in the game - it's not hard to react to a spike.

In short, I think your point about blood tap is accurate, but I feel like you're not acknowledging the inherent RNG involved in picking RC. Furthermore, the difference in math is significant - as Rizor states, you need about 150 rp per extra death strike with BT, and 222 rp per extra death strike (on average, obviously) with RC. That's not a difference you can ignore easily, especially when a rune strike is guaranteed to generate a blood charge. I can't rely on an RC proc to save me from burst damage, which, as I've stated a few times before, is unquestionably the most dangerous thing a tank has to deal with in 25h progression. Yet, blood tap is an ability that can always be counted on - and this is a characteristic that is valued in real raiding, not math.

I agree that it's easy to point out flaws in the mechanics of BT, but I'd rather see you (Hip or Shaffer) point out the strengths of RC that make it viable over BT. Maybe it can be attributed to my playstyle, but I still don't understand how RC could be the better choice.

[simetrik]

I think you're doing a good job in your play and in your theory crafting. I'm seeing things falling well within the parameters of what I'd consider good tanking/spell use. Certainly there are areas of improvement and your attitude and desire to play well will facilitate continued improvement.

I appreciate the compliment. Trying to become a better raider is always my top priority, and hopefully that will be one of, if not my most, useful qualities in whatever raiding I pursue in the future.

[Babylonius]

I personally used RC when I tanked last tier because it was set and forget and I found it procced very regularly. It may be 45% chance but its a 6s regen buff instead of a one time thing. I haven't played my dk since tot came out but I remember using rune strike so often it would occasionally chain proc.

Just my 2c but I was never a fan of BT because I felt RC was sufficient without worrying about it being wasted or having to sit on anything.

[Hip]

Not to harp on the issue too much, but I think you're disregarding the fact that RC is a 45% chance proc. It's not actually reliable

How about the word consistent then? It will consistently do the same job whenever it procs. The impact of that proc will raise and lower depending on the number of runes you have on CD but the reality should be that you would have 1 of each rune type on CD at all times during an encounter.

Basically let's not get caught up on semantics.

If you're happy with your talent choice (and you should be) congratulations. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

[simetrik]

Just my 2c but I was never a fan of BT because I felt RC was sufficient without worrying about it being wasted or having to sit on anything.

RC isn't a bad option, a lot of death knights are taking it and succeeding in their raiding endeavors. This is undoubtedly a discussion over the minutiae of optimization. Regardless, my point still stands. Check out my log - on a quick mouseover, I don't cap blood charges in the entire fight, yet I manage to pool them and stock up runic power while holding them so that I can quickly regenerate them after spending them (how many times can I say them in one sentence? Five times, apparently). I think I'm doing well in my tanking efforts, and I'm not capping any of my resources (runes, rp, or blood charges), so I feel justified in saying that BT is certainly sufficient as well.

You mention that sometimes you had good RNG with RC. That's awesome. If RC constantly chain procced it would be a no brainer to pick that talent. But just as there is good luck, there is bad luck (I couldn't think of any other way to phrase that that sounded less zen master-esque). What if you reach the last head on Megaera, and you don't get a single RC proc? It's mathematically, but also realistically, possible. With blood tap that situation never occurs (when you cap hit).

[simetrik]

Basically let's not get caught up on semantics.

If you're happy with your talent choice (and you should be) congratulations. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.